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Taking steps to deter kids having a sit-down in Rosehill
8:30am Thursday 15th May 2008
Comments (50)An area in Rosehill, known locally as "the steps", is to be re-designed to stop young people sitting there.
Not only will the steps be made longer and more shallow to make them uncomfortable to sit on, but no handrail will be installed just in case teens decide to lean against it.
“At the moment the steps are like ready-made seats so changes will be made to make the area less attractive to young people."
St Helier Councillor David Callaghan
According to police, there have been just two calls to them this year, compared with 15 in the same period last year.
Explaining the need for the changes, St Helier Councillor David Callaghan said: "At the moment the steps are like ready-made seats so changes will be made to make the area less attractive to young people.
"We held a meeting for ward councillors, residents and police and this was one of the ideas we came up with."
The decision to give "the steps" a facelift was made by the Rosehill area committee after ongoing complaints from residents about anti-social behaviour.
The £15k scheme will be partly funded by the council committee and partly funded by the Safer Sutton Partnership - made up of police and council members.
Residents will now be written to advise them of the changes. Coun Callahan said that if there was a strong reaction against the proposal, the committee would think again.
One local resident, who asked not to be named, said she was in favour of the move. She said: "For years now young people have gathered there during the holidays.
"The problem is the noise they make as many neighbours have young children. If it was local children we could sort it out between ourselves as we all know each other around here, but it's a problem when it's the older kids coming from further away," she said.
A CCTV camera has already been installed opposite the area but this has not proved enough of a deterrent.
Coun Callahan added that the youth service was working with the young people involved and that they were working on providing lighting at the nearby ball park and shelter so that they felt safe to be there after dark.
A police spokesman said other measures they had taken had already helped to reduce crime in the area.
Your Say YourYour Local Guardian
Den, Wallington says...
1:56pm Thu 15 May 08
Instead of wasting money changing the steps why don't they invest in the money in somewhere for the youngsters to go. All this will do is just make them move to somewhere else where they then become someone elses problem.
People keep saying we were not like this when we were young, but in those days we had plenty of youth clubs.
So maybe Sutton council should think about spending their money on more for the youths to do.
People keep saying we were not like this when we were young, but in those days we had plenty of youth clubs.
So maybe Sutton council should think about spending their money on more for the youths to do.
Emma, rosehill says...
7:14pm Thu 15 May 08
im not being funny but i am 14 years old and live by these steps i dont see whats the big proplem is as a teenager its only place were i can sit there nd be safe because park is damgour if i go youth club its dangours walking home in dark i dont understand why you are going to damage the place where we sit we have no other place to go everywhere eles is dangours and at least at the steps i feel safe. i dont want this happening to the steps its only place where i can sit with friends and get into no trouble i never see trouble there. theres only been about 3 things has happen people just think all teenages are bad when they really not we sit there to see are mates and talk we dont sit there to get into trouble.i would like to not see this happen to the steps because if they go where eles can i sit with my friends relex .hope you would get back to me because i would love not to see this happen to the steps.
Jane, Carshalton says...
9:48am Fri 16 May 08
Emma wrote:Maybe instead of sitting on the steps you can sit indoors and do some extra revision. For a 14 year old your spelling is awful. My 8 year old can spell better than you. Is our education system really getting this bad????
im not being funny but i am 14 years old and live by these steps i dont see whats the big proplem is as a teenager its only place were i can sit there nd be safe because park is damgour if i go youth club its dangours walking home in dark i dont understand why you are going to damage the place where we sit we have no other place to go everywhere eles is dangours and at least at the steps i feel safe. i dont want this happening to the steps its only place where i can sit with friends and get into no trouble i never see trouble there. theres only been about 3 things has happen people just think all teenages are bad when they really not we sit there to see are mates and talk we dont sit there to get into trouble.i would like to not see this happen to the steps because if they go where eles can i sit with my friends relex .hope you would get back to me because i would love not to see this happen to the steps.
carly, london says...
9:51am Fri 16 May 08
Oi Ron, dont be so dam rude, shes 14 for gods sake.
I think she has a point, not all teens are bad, it just the stupid ones that give us a bad name!
Just because a group of kids are sitting on that step, it doesnt mean they are up to no good. Like Emma said, there is no where else to go cos everywhere else is too dangerous & I agree. There is no where for kids to go in Rose hill cos there are the stupid few who make it dangerous for everyone else.
Good on ya girl, I hope the steps dont get taken away either, I used them a few years back too & me & my mates never caused any trouble.
I think she has a point, not all teens are bad, it just the stupid ones that give us a bad name!
Just because a group of kids are sitting on that step, it doesnt mean they are up to no good. Like Emma said, there is no where else to go cos everywhere else is too dangerous & I agree. There is no where for kids to go in Rose hill cos there are the stupid few who make it dangerous for everyone else.
Good on ya girl, I hope the steps dont get taken away either, I used them a few years back too & me & my mates never caused any trouble.
carly, london says...
12:16pm Fri 16 May 08
So Jane, you want all kids to be indoors revising for what? Most kids do their homework & what not then go out.
We get told that kids need to be more active, they aint gona be that by sitting indoors are they?
Have you ever stopped to think maybe Emma has a learning disability? Or there is a reason for her spelling mistakes.
My partner is accused of being thick as his spelling is not good but he is dyslexic. Narrow minded people like you see one thing & one thing only.
People should start opening their eyes & realise that not all teens are trouble makers, if anything, I think most are more caring than adults.
I see more young people getting up for elderly on public transport & helping them than I do older people. So I think people should think twice before they start crtisising people, especially people who make a valid point.
In case you are not aware, that is a form of bullying, making this girl feel small by belittling her spelling, like I said maybe there is a reason. Have a bit more consideration will you.
We get told that kids need to be more active, they aint gona be that by sitting indoors are they?
Have you ever stopped to think maybe Emma has a learning disability? Or there is a reason for her spelling mistakes.
My partner is accused of being thick as his spelling is not good but he is dyslexic. Narrow minded people like you see one thing & one thing only.
People should start opening their eyes & realise that not all teens are trouble makers, if anything, I think most are more caring than adults.
I see more young people getting up for elderly on public transport & helping them than I do older people. So I think people should think twice before they start crtisising people, especially people who make a valid point.
In case you are not aware, that is a form of bullying, making this girl feel small by belittling her spelling, like I said maybe there is a reason. Have a bit more consideration will you.
RG, Surrey, Surrey says...
1:54pm Fri 16 May 08
This is a waste of money, pure and simple. Emma has said they have NOWHERE ELSE TO GO ! Spend the money sorting that out instead of ridiculous measures like making steps uncomfortable. I'd much rather my extortionate council tax was used constructively, by providing activities that teenagers want to do, and keeping them off the streets. I work with kids like Emma every day, they need care and investment, some of them arent lucky enough to get it at home but a little TLC goes along way with the majority of today's teenagers.
Peter, says...
2:45am today Sat 17 May 08
spend the money on a leisure centre, a skate park or something sensible - and stop being a bigot while you are at it!
I also have a feeling Big Ron may have an inverse dimensional problem to the adjective he claims!
I also have a feeling Big Ron may have an inverse dimensional problem to the adjective he claims!
Pete, Surbiton says...
10:00am Sun 18 May 08
£15k. I don't know how large a part of the budget that is, but it's still not an amount to be sneezed at.
What would be wrong with a bench?
Was there a consultation process? David Callaghan said "We held a meeting for ward councillors, residents and police and this was one of the ideas we came up with."
Question is - were the people who actually use the steps in on that consultation process?
I bet you they weren't.
I also think it's ridiculous that, if what Emma says is true, young people are too scared to use the park. What's going on there then?
I'm as much in favour of getting people out and active as the next guy. But what's the point of having parks if people are too scared to walk in them and play in them?
I'm not suggesting for a moment that the Sutton and St Helier open spaces should all be bricked over and have a whole load of houses built on it. But really, I think we're probably missing something more obvious here.
What would be wrong with a bench?
Was there a consultation process? David Callaghan said "We held a meeting for ward councillors, residents and police and this was one of the ideas we came up with."
Question is - were the people who actually use the steps in on that consultation process?
I bet you they weren't.
I also think it's ridiculous that, if what Emma says is true, young people are too scared to use the park. What's going on there then?
I'm as much in favour of getting people out and active as the next guy. But what's the point of having parks if people are too scared to walk in them and play in them?
I'm not suggesting for a moment that the Sutton and St Helier open spaces should all be bricked over and have a whole load of houses built on it. But really, I think we're probably missing something more obvious here.
halle, cheam says...
9:15am Mon 19 May 08
This borough has a serious issue with young people. They are kicked out of parks, off of steps etc. because these area's are for everybody in the community - sorry if im mistaken, but do teenagers not count as members of this community? How about we all give kids a rest and allow them to be young, loud and childish - after all, they are kids! I am 18 and I have been loud and probably annoyed people in the past, but i'm not a troublemaker, I just wanted somewhere to hang about with my friends!
And Ron and Jane its sad, snobby people like you that bring the younger generations down. Shes 14 - at least she's bothering to have an opinion, and she's on this site so must be taking an interst in the local news. Why pick up on something as trivial as spelling, you could understand it couldn't you!
And Ron and Jane its sad, snobby people like you that bring the younger generations down. Shes 14 - at least she's bothering to have an opinion, and she's on this site so must be taking an interst in the local news. Why pick up on something as trivial as spelling, you could understand it couldn't you!
C, SW London says...
10:21am Mon 19 May 08
I'm 22 and was a bit of a tearaway when I was a teenager. A huge part of why my friends and I got in to mischief was boredom, plain and simple. There is nothing for teenagers to do which doesnt cost money, usually, alot of money.
I'm always seeing on the news- "Kids in London, part of a scheme" Everything from football coaching to hip-hop style dance workshops..Lottery funded etc.. Why cant some of those opportunities be given to kids around Rosehill & surrounding areas, perhaps then you wouldnt get the gangs of kids, most of which are just there to see their mates and chat, hanging around your precious steps!
Oh and anyone who mocks a young girls grammar in such a way SMALL RONALD is the lowest of the low. Grow up.
I'm always seeing on the news- "Kids in London, part of a scheme" Everything from football coaching to hip-hop style dance workshops..Lottery funded etc.. Why cant some of those opportunities be given to kids around Rosehill & surrounding areas, perhaps then you wouldnt get the gangs of kids, most of which are just there to see their mates and chat, hanging around your precious steps!
Oh and anyone who mocks a young girls grammar in such a way SMALL RONALD is the lowest of the low. Grow up.
carly, london says...
10:50am Mon 19 May 08
I think C summed it up.
Half the reason I spent my time hanging around Rose Hill Park was because I was bored. And it a park for the community so we took to using it as a meeting place. That & the steps.
Give kids something to do thats cheap or free even & that will at least help the problem.
Emma darling, I think you have got yourself a fan base & I would just like to point out. I wasn't accusing Emma of having a disability or anything, I was just merely saying that there are many reasons why her spelling wasn't too great. I know mine aint perfect so you know!
Half the reason I spent my time hanging around Rose Hill Park was because I was bored. And it a park for the community so we took to using it as a meeting place. That & the steps.
Give kids something to do thats cheap or free even & that will at least help the problem.
Emma darling, I think you have got yourself a fan base & I would just like to point out. I wasn't accusing Emma of having a disability or anything, I was just merely saying that there are many reasons why her spelling wasn't too great. I know mine aint perfect so you know!
Emma, Rosehill says...
1:06pm Mon 19 May 08
I cant help if i cant spell proply sorry but the point isn't about my spelling its about my emotional and social needs and other kids my age.I am pleased the amount of people that have responed back to my comments.I hope something can be done about these step.Thanks the those to feel same way and thanks for your support.
Adrian Short, Sutton says...
2:16pm Mon 19 May 08
If Cllr Callaghan had said that he wanted to spend £15,000 of public money to make Rosehill less attractive to old people, black people or homosexuals there would be loud calls for his resignation -- and quite right, too. Why then are young people an acceptable target for this kind of vindictive rhetoric and treatment?
More by accident than design, the council has provided a safe and comfortable public place where young people are happy to gather to socialise. I suspect these young people feel safe here because it is near local houses rather than in a large isolated space. Where there is anti-social behaviour (and there is scant evidence of it in this article) then that is the problem that needs to be dealt with, not the simple presence of young people using public space sociably and legally.
Most young people are perfectly able to act with consideration towards others in public. Those that aren't will never learn to do so by being shunted off to a youth ghetto out of sight and earshot of everyone else.
Young people are just as likely to be victims of violence, intimidation and robbery as anyone else. Feeling safe and welcome in all parts of the borough is just as important to them as it is to older people and should be just as high a priority for the council.
While it is good that the council wants to improve facilities for young people, they should not be expected to vacate other places to use them, let alone coerced by intentionally hostile design. Nor should it ever be acceptable for an elected councillor to tell them that they're just not welcome in some parts of the borough. Public space is for everyone, not just those with votes and voices.
More by accident than design, the council has provided a safe and comfortable public place where young people are happy to gather to socialise. I suspect these young people feel safe here because it is near local houses rather than in a large isolated space. Where there is anti-social behaviour (and there is scant evidence of it in this article) then that is the problem that needs to be dealt with, not the simple presence of young people using public space sociably and legally.
Most young people are perfectly able to act with consideration towards others in public. Those that aren't will never learn to do so by being shunted off to a youth ghetto out of sight and earshot of everyone else.
Young people are just as likely to be victims of violence, intimidation and robbery as anyone else. Feeling safe and welcome in all parts of the borough is just as important to them as it is to older people and should be just as high a priority for the council.
While it is good that the council wants to improve facilities for young people, they should not be expected to vacate other places to use them, let alone coerced by intentionally hostile design. Nor should it ever be acceptable for an elected councillor to tell them that they're just not welcome in some parts of the borough. Public space is for everyone, not just those with votes and voices.
carly, london says...
3:04pm Mon 19 May 08
Emma, I think most people agree with you, like I've said too, I've used them steps aswell & it is good as it is safe init.
I just think that Ron & Jane are small minded idiots that have like 500ft gardens for their kids to play in,away from all the danger.
I really weren't being rude either saying about you not spelling proply I dont want you to think I was taking p*ss or something. I just wanted to make a point to them too. As long as your decent I dont think it matters how you spell.
I just think that Ron & Jane are small minded idiots that have like 500ft gardens for their kids to play in,away from all the danger.
I really weren't being rude either saying about you not spelling proply I dont want you to think I was taking p*ss or something. I just wanted to make a point to them too. As long as your decent I dont think it matters how you spell.
Jane, SURREY says...
3:30pm Mon 19 May 08
I just think that Ron & Jane are small minded idiots that have like 500ft gardens for their kids to play in,away from all the danger.
You are so wrong there, and by calling me an idiot you yourself are becoming a hypocrite.
I actually live in a council house on a council estate that has it's fair share of teenagers.
So I guess you need to think before you write Carly....Init!
C, SW London says...
4:49pm Mon 19 May 08
Jane you are completely missing the point. Although its not right to call some one an idiot its also pretty hurtful to tell a child their spelling is awful. I obvioulsy dont know if you have kids yourself but what I can pretty much guarentee that you'd be pretty annoyed if someone spoke to your child like that. It's just a bit mean. If the artical was on kids having problems spelling you might have an arguement..
I hope my spelling meets with your approval.
I hope my spelling meets with your approval.
Emma, Rosehill says...
5:07pm Mon 19 May 08
This is silly.To be honest all i can say is thankyou everyone that will support me and feel same way about the steps.There is never danger at the steps.I find it so nice, relexing and piecefull.Like i said it's a place where i get into no trouble, a place i no i'm safe and my mum nose where i am.If the council takes this away its like taking are homes away.Jane i understand what you said about the reivsion and about my spelling but im sorry i just can't help if i can't spell propley and you say we should stay in revise.I finshed my SATS and i put so much effort into it and revise loads but i still sat there i dont have to be indoors all day revising and i feel so proud of my self.I get so much help in my life with my teacher's i don't think it was nice to say i can't spell like carly said i'm 14.Your making are freedom like hell if you take them away.We are not all bad teenagers.If i have tooken my time just to get my point across don't you think that must take lots of guts to get my self on this website and write my views about it.There's so many teenagers sit here and i dont feel frecked out if i walk past them and even if i dont no them they would still smile and maybe some might say hi.Just keep it in mind not all teenagers go out everynight get drunk, dont go school, don't care about there eduction because i tell you what i shorely do.I think il get somewhere if life because i want to be a poilet but taken these steps where eles am i going to go feel safe and knowing i am not going to get my self in trouble.Thanks For listerning Emma .. x
carly, london says...
5:13pm Mon 19 May 08
Jane, I suppose its ok for you to mock a 14yr old for her spelling because you're an adult isn't it! But because I'm younger & calling you an idiot it's not acceptable. I think you will find THATS being a hypocrite.
Please can you elaborate on me being a hypocrite by calling you an idiot because that does not make sense. Or do you want to mock me aswell.
Ok so fair enough, you live in a council estate, so even then you should know not to mock people in that lifestyle or within these areas where there is danger for youngsters.
I stick by my statement that you are narrow minded though & I am sorry if that offends you
Please can you elaborate on me being a hypocrite by calling you an idiot because that does not make sense. Or do you want to mock me aswell.
Ok so fair enough, you live in a council estate, so even then you should know not to mock people in that lifestyle or within these areas where there is danger for youngsters.
I stick by my statement that you are narrow minded though & I am sorry if that offends you
Emma, Rosehill says...
5:38pm Mon 19 May 08
People must think i'm freck keep caming on this website reading the comments but its that bad i go not want to see the step be token away to be uncomforable and Jane i find you really sad im 14 years old and like Carly said thats like bullying.People like you are the owns that get teenagers so anger and feel small.Like way you made me feel.If i was you i would be so shamed of my self.Once again thankyou everyone for supporting me.
Emma, Rosehill says...
5:43pm Mon 19 May 08
Emma wrote:People must think i'm a freck, keep caming on this website reading the comments but its that bad i do not want to see the steps be tooken away to be uncomforable and Jane i find you really sad im 14 years old and like Carly said thats like bullying.People like you are the ones that get teenagers so anger and feel small.Like way you made me feel by taking the mike out of my spellings.If i was you i would be so shamed of my self.Once again thankyou everyone for supporting me...Emma
People must think i\'m freck keep caming on this website reading the comments but its that bad i go not want to see the step be token away to be uncomforable and Jane i find you really sad im 14 years old and like Carly said thats like bullying.People like you are the owns that get teenagers so anger and feel small.Like way you made me feel.If i was you i would be so shamed of my self.Once again thankyou everyone for supporting me.
Jane, Carshalton says...
5:13pm Tue 20 May 08
I'm not ashamed of myself, I'm not narrow minded and I'm certainly not an idiot.
To be honest I am sick of trying to make a point about what youngsters in this area need to keep them off the streets.
Instead of you all trying to have a dig at me, maybe you should get on to your local MP and the council, because if you think all these messages are going to make a difference to the fat cats at the council you are wrong.
The council have come to this decision because the people who live near the steps have complained. And I'm sorry to burst your bubble Emma & Carly but no amount of your messages on here will make them change their minds.
So take my comment with a pinch of salt (like you obviously did Big Ron's) & get on to the MP & the council.
Get petitions started and make yourselves heard.
To be honest I am sick of trying to make a point about what youngsters in this area need to keep them off the streets.
Instead of you all trying to have a dig at me, maybe you should get on to your local MP and the council, because if you think all these messages are going to make a difference to the fat cats at the council you are wrong.
The council have come to this decision because the people who live near the steps have complained. And I'm sorry to burst your bubble Emma & Carly but no amount of your messages on here will make them change their minds.
So take my comment with a pinch of salt (like you obviously did Big Ron's) & get on to the MP & the council.
Get petitions started and make yourselves heard.
Emma, Rosehill says...
7:20pm Tue 20 May 08
Yes dont worry i am going try and get on to the MP but thing that was upset me most people like you.. i came on this website get my view across then all you do is bullying me to be honest taking the mike out of my spellings and attucally you oberivsly dont no the steps because they are not dangours at all theres not many trouble there my point about 3 in last year.By the way i would be ashamed because you are much older then me and you try make me feel as small as possible about my spelling when i'm not on this website about my spellings trying to get my social needs and with the some kids my age...Emma
Melanie, Sutton says...
3:09pm Wed 21 May 08
I live in this road and have done so for the past 20 years. I have never had trouble with kids sitting on the steps. As Emma quite rightly says , what else are they supposed to do. Instead of wasting our money Sutton Council should be putting it to a much better use. Find a way for the kids to hang out with their friends safely and at the same time having fun and learning useful skills. Making the steps shallower is not going to stop the kids sitting there anyway , what a waste of our money . Come on Sutton Council pull your finger out and do something constructive and useful for a change.
Melanie, Sutton says...
3:14pm Wed 21 May 08
Another point I would like to mention is instead of commenting on Emma's spelling skills we should be commending her on having an opinion and taking the time to post a reply to something she obviously feels strongly about. How many other teenagers would actually take the time to do so or indeed how many people actually ask them for their opinion on such matters. Lets hope Jane's 8 year old with his superior spelling skills has such opinions when he becomes 14
Jane, Carshalron says...
9:32am Thu 22 May 08
Lets hope Jane's 8 year old with his superior spelling skills has such opinions when he becomes 14
He is actually a she. And the same message to you especially as you live near the steps get in touch with the council and the local MP because nobody at the council is going to do anything about the messages on here.
Everybody needs to keep on at the council demanding our council tax is used to help the kids of today.
I constantly write to the council stating this fact but I am just 1 voice and as much as I would like to I can't make the council do things with just my opinion.
Councillor David Callaghan, St Helier says...
7:04pm Sat 24 May 08
Hello everyone,
I have read all the comments posted about the plans we have to change the steps, and I understand there are concerns. It is not fair though to say we are not doing anything for the youngsters in the area of the steps.
The same meeting that agreed to spend money on the steps also agreed to finance new lights on the popular skateboard park opposite St Helier hospital, to ensure it can still be used after it gets dark in the winter. The skateboard park is alongside a modern leisure centre - Sutton Arena, which has lots of fantastic sports facilities on offer for young people.
The committee has also previously ensured new lights are to be placed alongside the ball court and youth shelter in Rosehill Recreation Ground, which is nearby. This will also be served by a new pedestrian crossing over the busy A217 Reigate Avenue.
The changes at the steps are being made in response to pleas from the residents living there for us to do something about anti-social behaviour directly outside their homes, which has been a problem for many years. For some people, their lives have been made miserable at different times in the past.
We have worked closely with the police to address the problems there and on the plans to change the steps.
Emma said it is "nice, relaxing and peaceful" to sit on the steps, which is fine. But it isn't nice and relaxing for the residents to have youngsters, and I'm sure Emma isn't one of them, sitting on the steps in the early hours of the morning making a lot of noise, when those residents have to get up early for work.
Sutton's Youth Service has been active in the area and has shown many of the youngsters there where facilities are available for them nearby.
No-one has a problem with young people wanting to meet up and spend time together. But it mustn't be at the expense of other local people's quality of life.
We are going to write to the residents in that area so they will have an opportunity to say what they think before we do anything to the steps.
The local committee that made the decisions I mentioned is open to everyone in the area to come and tell us what they think and raise issues. The next meeting is on Tuesday 8 July at 7pm at Muschamp Primary School in Muschamp Road, and everyone is welcome.
People often say the council and police do nothing about problems of anti-social behaviour - well here is an example of where we are doing something.
I have read all the comments posted about the plans we have to change the steps, and I understand there are concerns. It is not fair though to say we are not doing anything for the youngsters in the area of the steps.
The same meeting that agreed to spend money on the steps also agreed to finance new lights on the popular skateboard park opposite St Helier hospital, to ensure it can still be used after it gets dark in the winter. The skateboard park is alongside a modern leisure centre - Sutton Arena, which has lots of fantastic sports facilities on offer for young people.
The committee has also previously ensured new lights are to be placed alongside the ball court and youth shelter in Rosehill Recreation Ground, which is nearby. This will also be served by a new pedestrian crossing over the busy A217 Reigate Avenue.
The changes at the steps are being made in response to pleas from the residents living there for us to do something about anti-social behaviour directly outside their homes, which has been a problem for many years. For some people, their lives have been made miserable at different times in the past.
We have worked closely with the police to address the problems there and on the plans to change the steps.
Emma said it is "nice, relaxing and peaceful" to sit on the steps, which is fine. But it isn't nice and relaxing for the residents to have youngsters, and I'm sure Emma isn't one of them, sitting on the steps in the early hours of the morning making a lot of noise, when those residents have to get up early for work.
Sutton's Youth Service has been active in the area and has shown many of the youngsters there where facilities are available for them nearby.
No-one has a problem with young people wanting to meet up and spend time together. But it mustn't be at the expense of other local people's quality of life.
We are going to write to the residents in that area so they will have an opportunity to say what they think before we do anything to the steps.
The local committee that made the decisions I mentioned is open to everyone in the area to come and tell us what they think and raise issues. The next meeting is on Tuesday 8 July at 7pm at Muschamp Primary School in Muschamp Road, and everyone is welcome.
People often say the council and police do nothing about problems of anti-social behaviour - well here is an example of where we are doing something.
Adrian Short, Sutton says...
5:14pm Tue 27 May 08
Cllr Callaghan,
Thank you for coming here to join the discussion. I'm glad you've read the comments here but there is little evidence in your message that you understand the concerns of the young people whose gathering place will be removed. If you do, you certainly haven't addressed them.
The issue here isn't about providing facilities for young people. It's about equal access to public space. You can build as many skate parks, leisure centres and youth shelters as you like, but there will always be large numbers of young people -- the majority -- who will spend most of their time using public space informally on their own terms, rather than participating in organised activities or using youth-oriented places. And why shouldn't they?
You say that, "no-one has a problem with young people wanting to meet up and spend time together", yet you are proposing to make this change to prevent exactly that.
Local residents' concerns about noise late at night certainly need to be dealt with. If the problems are serious enough to warrant this measure and are as long standing as you seem to suggest, it shows a total lack of insight and imagination on the part of the council and police to deal with a presumably small number of persistent troublemakers without applying a crude collective punishment to the rest of the young people in the area. What kind of message do you think that this sends to them?
Your plan will undoubtedly be at the expense of many well-behaved young people's quality of life. They are local people too. You are not striking an appropriate balance between two groups with conflicting interests, but penalising one innocent group to benefit another. How about just penalising the troublemakers? If you don't know how to do that, perhaps you should step aside for someone who does.
I have little confidence that writing to local householders and issuing an invitation to a formal committee meeting is an effective way to engage the young people who will be the losers if your plan goes ahead. How many letters did you write to your councillor when you were 13? How many committees did you attend? Once again, you clearly either misunderstand how to involve young people or you are being disingenuous about your desire to do so. But you never know. They might turn up en masse and surprise us both. I hope they do.
One thing young people and older people have in common is a desire to be left alone to do their own thing, provided that they are not causing trouble to others. People like Emma and her friends are not. They do not want to be told that they can go to one place but not another. They do not want to be cajoled, corralled and organised by the state -- they get enough of that at school. They certainly do not want to be disadvantaged as a group because those in charge -- you -- are unable to deal appropriately with a tiny minority of troublemakers in their midst.
Your proposal is manifestly unjust, inequitable, prejudiced and illiberal. Find the bad people and sort them out. Leave the rest alone.
Thank you for coming here to join the discussion. I'm glad you've read the comments here but there is little evidence in your message that you understand the concerns of the young people whose gathering place will be removed. If you do, you certainly haven't addressed them.
The issue here isn't about providing facilities for young people. It's about equal access to public space. You can build as many skate parks, leisure centres and youth shelters as you like, but there will always be large numbers of young people -- the majority -- who will spend most of their time using public space informally on their own terms, rather than participating in organised activities or using youth-oriented places. And why shouldn't they?
You say that, "no-one has a problem with young people wanting to meet up and spend time together", yet you are proposing to make this change to prevent exactly that.
Local residents' concerns about noise late at night certainly need to be dealt with. If the problems are serious enough to warrant this measure and are as long standing as you seem to suggest, it shows a total lack of insight and imagination on the part of the council and police to deal with a presumably small number of persistent troublemakers without applying a crude collective punishment to the rest of the young people in the area. What kind of message do you think that this sends to them?
Your plan will undoubtedly be at the expense of many well-behaved young people's quality of life. They are local people too. You are not striking an appropriate balance between two groups with conflicting interests, but penalising one innocent group to benefit another. How about just penalising the troublemakers? If you don't know how to do that, perhaps you should step aside for someone who does.
I have little confidence that writing to local householders and issuing an invitation to a formal committee meeting is an effective way to engage the young people who will be the losers if your plan goes ahead. How many letters did you write to your councillor when you were 13? How many committees did you attend? Once again, you clearly either misunderstand how to involve young people or you are being disingenuous about your desire to do so. But you never know. They might turn up en masse and surprise us both. I hope they do.
One thing young people and older people have in common is a desire to be left alone to do their own thing, provided that they are not causing trouble to others. People like Emma and her friends are not. They do not want to be told that they can go to one place but not another. They do not want to be cajoled, corralled and organised by the state -- they get enough of that at school. They certainly do not want to be disadvantaged as a group because those in charge -- you -- are unable to deal appropriately with a tiny minority of troublemakers in their midst.
Your proposal is manifestly unjust, inequitable, prejudiced and illiberal. Find the bad people and sort them out. Leave the rest alone.
inurl, Sofia says...
1:02pm Fri 30 May 08
My sister has been living in London since she was eleven and she's complained to me that kids there as opposed to her native country don't do anything unless it's strictly organized or under parental supervision etc.
Seems like places like this one are a rare few that are safe enough yet independent enough to provide some let out to those kids.
The way my childhood went I've spent countless hours playing around my area or just walking off in any general direction to explore another part of town. Later on when in my teenage years me and my best friends main past-time was keeping another friend of ours company at the video store he worked at a couple miles away.
I personally think that the urban or away from the family experience has been a helpful let out for all the studying I've done through the years and a very good way to make new friends.
Now people must realize that it's not about the sitting around with friends or the alcohol or the drugs you see eventually your kid hits 21 what are you gonna do then? It's about teaching your kid to respect those things and make the choices for him/herself not out of fear for punishment or because you told him that it's wrong.
Teaching your kid a set of yes/no right/wrong allowed/banned items and situations I'm afraid is not the same as teaching him/her to cope with the outside world.
Seems like places like this one are a rare few that are safe enough yet independent enough to provide some let out to those kids.
The way my childhood went I've spent countless hours playing around my area or just walking off in any general direction to explore another part of town. Later on when in my teenage years me and my best friends main past-time was keeping another friend of ours company at the video store he worked at a couple miles away.
I personally think that the urban or away from the family experience has been a helpful let out for all the studying I've done through the years and a very good way to make new friends.
Now people must realize that it's not about the sitting around with friends or the alcohol or the drugs you see eventually your kid hits 21 what are you gonna do then? It's about teaching your kid to respect those things and make the choices for him/herself not out of fear for punishment or because you told him that it's wrong.
Teaching your kid a set of yes/no right/wrong allowed/banned items and situations I'm afraid is not the same as teaching him/her to cope with the outside world.
inurl, Sofia says...
1:06pm Fri 30 May 08
My sister has been living in London since she was eleven and she's complained to me that kids there as opposed to her native country don't do anything unless it's strictly organized or under parental supervision etc.
Seems like places like this one are a rare few that are safe enough yet independent enough to provide some let out to those kids.
The way my childhood went I've spent countless hours playing around my area or just walking off in any general direction to explore another part of town. Later on when in my teenage years me and my best friends main past-time was keeping another friend of ours company at the video store he worked at a couple miles away.
I personally think that the urban or away from the family experience has been a helpful let out for all the studying I've done through the years and a very good way to make new friends.
Now people must realize that it's not about the sitting around with friends or the alcohol or the drugs you see eventually your kid hits 21 what are you gonna do then? It's about teaching your kid to respect those things and make the choices for him/herself not out of fear for punishment or because you told him that it's wrong.
Teaching your kid a set of yes/no right/wrong allowed/banned items and situations I'm afraid is not the same as teaching him/her to cope with the outside world.
Seems like places like this one are a rare few that are safe enough yet independent enough to provide some let out to those kids.
The way my childhood went I've spent countless hours playing around my area or just walking off in any general direction to explore another part of town. Later on when in my teenage years me and my best friends main past-time was keeping another friend of ours company at the video store he worked at a couple miles away.
I personally think that the urban or away from the family experience has been a helpful let out for all the studying I've done through the years and a very good way to make new friends.
Now people must realize that it's not about the sitting around with friends or the alcohol or the drugs you see eventually your kid hits 21 what are you gonna do then? It's about teaching your kid to respect those things and make the choices for him/herself not out of fear for punishment or because you told him that it's wrong.
Teaching your kid a set of yes/no right/wrong allowed/banned items and situations I'm afraid is not the same as teaching him/her to cope with the outside world.
Lily, UK says...
1:13pm Fri 30 May 08
Congrats, you made the internet for this narrow-minded, ageist proposal: http://www.boingboin
g.net/2008/05/30/ant
ikid-modification.ht
ml
g.net/2008/05/30/ant
ikid-modification.ht
ml
VT, Sofia says...
1:27pm Fri 30 May 08
http://www.birdsolut
ions.com/images/DLLl
ightsml.jpg
ions.com/images/DLLl
ightsml.jpg
Parkylondon, London... says...
1:54pm Fri 30 May 08
And let the BoingBoing-ing begin.
I think the commenter who said they were spending the money to make the area "less attractive to old people, black people or homosexuals there would be loud calls for his resignation -- and quite right, too. Why then are young people an acceptable target for this kind of vindictive rhetoric and treatment?"
has hit the nail right on the head. Disgraceful behaviour by the Council. Clueless people. Give the kids something better to do - stop moving them on..
And one more thing - Go Emma! Go for it girl. Get yourself elected!
I think the commenter who said they were spending the money to make the area "less attractive to old people, black people or homosexuals there would be loud calls for his resignation -- and quite right, too. Why then are young people an acceptable target for this kind of vindictive rhetoric and treatment?"
has hit the nail right on the head. Disgraceful behaviour by the Council. Clueless people. Give the kids something better to do - stop moving them on..
And one more thing - Go Emma! Go for it girl. Get yourself elected!
Duncan Parker, says...
2:08pm Fri 30 May 08
Jane wrote:Maybe this youth has trouble with written language, such as a learning difficulty. Maybe she gets enough hassle already without your stinking variety.
Emma wrote:Maybe instead of sitting on the steps you can sit indoors and do some extra revision. For a 14 year old your spelling is awful. My 8 year old can spell better than you. Is our education system really getting this bad????
im not being funny but i am 14 years old and live by these steps i dont see whats the big proplem is as a teenager its only place were i can sit there nd be safe because park is damgour if i go youth club its dangours walking home in dark i dont understand why you are going to damage the place where we sit we have no other place to go everywhere eles is dangours and at least at the steps i feel safe. i dont want this happening to the steps its only place where i can sit with friends and get into no trouble i never see trouble there. theres only been about 3 things has happen people just think all teenages are bad when they really not we sit there to see are mates and talk we dont sit there to get into trouble.i would like to not see this happen to the steps because if they go where eles can i sit with my friends relex .hope you would get back to me because i would love not to see this happen to the steps.
Roman, Sutton says...
2:19pm Fri 30 May 08
Young people sitting is disgraceful, bring back hanging etc.
As a youth, myself and the vast majority of my friends just wanted somewhere to hang out, that we chose. Where I grew up there were leisure centres, skate parks and all sorts of gubbins that we used, when we wanted to. However, we had neither the money nor the inclination to use these facilities every night of the week.
I'm afraid the local community (and society in general) has a responsibility to allow these young people to explore and grow up within the community, they are part of the community after all (though the most discriminated against in the current climate). Hanging out is something teenagers do. However, it's much easier to paint them as demons and score points about their spelling (you horrid little man).
SAVE THE STEP!
As a youth, myself and the vast majority of my friends just wanted somewhere to hang out, that we chose. Where I grew up there were leisure centres, skate parks and all sorts of gubbins that we used, when we wanted to. However, we had neither the money nor the inclination to use these facilities every night of the week.
I'm afraid the local community (and society in general) has a responsibility to allow these young people to explore and grow up within the community, they are part of the community after all (though the most discriminated against in the current climate). Hanging out is something teenagers do. However, it's much easier to paint them as demons and score points about their spelling (you horrid little man).
SAVE THE STEP!
Micheal O'Luain, Japan says...
2:23pm Fri 30 May 08
Emma! Despite your spelling, you are a very eloquent and thoughtful young lady! Thanks to boingboing you are also kind of famous now! Keep fighting for your steps! Young people like YOU are an inspiration.
Alex H, says...
2:48pm Fri 30 May 08
I live down the road, and kids come and sit on the kerbside here, which is even worse.
While BoingBoing can sniff at this, there is a real issue with kids just hanging around, with decent facilities literally a couple of minutes' walk away.
They play football on our street, damaging cars and windows, when there is a huge park five minutes' walk away.
The council have provided the facilities. The kids need to hang out in appropriate places.
While BoingBoing can sniff at this, there is a real issue with kids just hanging around, with decent facilities literally a couple of minutes' walk away.
They play football on our street, damaging cars and windows, when there is a huge park five minutes' walk away.
The council have provided the facilities. The kids need to hang out in appropriate places.
VT, Sofia says...
2:49pm Fri 30 May 08
I think the children should look into the legal side of protesting the council decision.
Until that moment is due of course they should participate in all public meetings addressing the issue.
One important lesson learned early in life is that nobody else is going to fight your fights. If anything matters to you and is important to you that's plenty a reason to go out there and put your views on the line.
But it's your own responsibility to do that and no law or code of ethics is strong enough in the present worth for you to lay back and hope to be protected by somebody else.
It's also important that this lesson be learned through active participation and hopefully success rather than watching other people destroy something you care about.
Until that moment is due of course they should participate in all public meetings addressing the issue.
One important lesson learned early in life is that nobody else is going to fight your fights. If anything matters to you and is important to you that's plenty a reason to go out there and put your views on the line.
But it's your own responsibility to do that and no law or code of ethics is strong enough in the present worth for you to lay back and hope to be protected by somebody else.
It's also important that this lesson be learned through active participation and hopefully success rather than watching other people destroy something you care about.
VT, Sofia says...
2:54pm Fri 30 May 08
Alex H wrote:Well I supposed you just have to learn to live with that. In no society in history has it been made possible for kids to be simply herded into socially acceptable facilities for whatever is worth of their first 18 or 21 years in life.
I live down the road, and kids come and sit on the kerbside here, which is even worse.
While BoingBoing can sniff at this, there is a real issue with kids just hanging around, with decent facilities literally a couple of minutes' walk away.
They play football on our street, damaging cars and windows, when there is a huge park five minutes' walk away.
The council have provided the facilities. The kids need to hang out in appropriate places.
Children will always want to just hang out or play where they want to.
Paul, says...
6:56pm Fri 30 May 08
Micheal O'Luain wrote:Yes, Emma. Kudos to you for speaking out on something that you believe in, and that affects you. But you should still try to use proper spelling and grammar. It can often make the difference in being ignored, because it's perceived that you don't know what's up, and being taken seriously.
Emma! Despite your spelling, you are a very eloquent and thoughtful young lady! Thanks to boingboing you are also kind of famous now! Keep fighting for your steps! Young people like YOU are an inspiration.
Steven, says...
9:17pm Fri 30 May 08
I'm going to try to keep this short. It's Unfair. And it's terrible logic. I'm pretty sure most people's reactions when there are teenagers hanging around is not, "Let's spend lots of money making some stairs uncomfortable." I'd Imagine it to be more along the lines of, "Lets make sure there's somewhere else convenient and safe people can hang out."
From personal experience skate parks can often tend to attract people that general society might label as trouble. They are not bad people, they're just dealing with what they've been given the best way they can.
Teenagers hanging out at some stairs should tell you that there's already something wrong. Taking away what little they have is likely only to make people harbour resentment and dislike towards the council, which obviously does not bode well.
Take some steps towards the people you're supposed to be serving.
I dislike this totalitarian, uncomfortable-step toting way of thinking. You'll consider changing plans only if there is an outcry? That doesn't sound too adult to be, to be honest.
"Go on, object to our mighty awkward stair regime, we dare you."
From personal experience skate parks can often tend to attract people that general society might label as trouble. They are not bad people, they're just dealing with what they've been given the best way they can.
Teenagers hanging out at some stairs should tell you that there's already something wrong. Taking away what little they have is likely only to make people harbour resentment and dislike towards the council, which obviously does not bode well.
Take some steps towards the people you're supposed to be serving.
I dislike this totalitarian, uncomfortable-step toting way of thinking. You'll consider changing plans only if there is an outcry? That doesn't sound too adult to be, to be honest.
"Go on, object to our mighty awkward stair regime, we dare you."
Jo, Edmonton, Alberta says...
11:20pm Fri 30 May 08
Adrian Short has a point that should not be overlooked in all these calls to create spaces that we adults see as appropriate for kids: they should be allowed to use public space in their own terms, especially if they're not doing any real harm. Making noise is not real harm, and those who do so in the middle of the night can be moved on by law, so making the steps uncomfortable for all kids is not a legitimate solution. The REAL issue that is not being addressed is the apparent inability for adults to share public space with children aged 12-17. Small children are annoying too, but most people would think it outrageous to make public areas uncomfortable and unsafe for them. Likewise, old people are slow and get in the way, and are often whiny, but we accept that these are minor inconveniences that must be tolerated. It would seem that our collective discontents with the squillion irritating things other people do are taken out on teenagers, and that's not fair!
Alec Muffett, Hants says...
6:25am Sat 31 May 08
No handrail will be installed? What happens to elderly folk using it in wintery conditions?
Someone hasn't thought this through...
Someone hasn't thought this through...
David, Oregon, USA says...
7:58am Sat 31 May 08
Jane wrote:Your education system is awful when, instead of addressing this young woman's valid arguments, adults criticize her spelling. I would expect more in the way of critical thinking from someone so concerned with education.
Emma wrote:Maybe instead of sitting on the steps you can sit indoors and do some extra revision. For a 14 year old your spelling is awful. My 8 year old can spell better than you. Is our education system really getting this bad????
im not being funny but i am 14 years old and live by these steps i dont see whats the big proplem is as a teenager its only place were i can sit there nd be safe because park is damgour if i go youth club its dangours walking home in dark i dont understand why you are going to damage the place where we sit we have no other place to go everywhere eles is dangours and at least at the steps i feel safe. i dont want this happening to the steps its only place where i can sit with friends and get into no trouble i never see trouble there. theres only been about 3 things has happen people just think all teenages are bad when they really not we sit there to see are mates and talk we dont sit there to get into trouble.i would like to not see this happen to the steps because if they go where eles can i sit with my friends relex .hope you would get back to me because i would love not to see this happen to the steps.
Justin, Manchester says...
11:00am Sat 31 May 08
This is just typical British idiocy. Its embarrassing. Has anyone actually done anything wrong here? Shouldn't we be focusing on the real problems that young people face? Rather than alienating them?
(via Boing Boing)
(via Boing Boing)
Adrian Short, Sutton says...
4:19pm Sat 31 May 08
I've started a Facebook group called "Save Our Steps at Rosehill" to oppose the Council's plans to modify the steps.
Anyone who's interested in seeing how this pans out or who may be able to help is welcome to join.
Sign up to preserve good public space and oppose the demonisation of young people.
http://www.facebook.
com/group.php?gid=14
791498321
Anyone who's interested in seeing how this pans out or who may be able to help is welcome to join.
Sign up to preserve good public space and oppose the demonisation of young people.
http://www.facebook.
com/group.php?gid=14
791498321
Anonymous, Canada says...
1:13am Sun 1 Jun 08
I'd just like to take this time to point out that all British people are awful spellers.
Everyone here who's criticized someone else's spelling has made several mistakes themselves.
This is a common theme I've noticed in reading any comments left by a British person, on all the websites I visit.
I do believe you'd be best off investing that 15k into your education system rather than using it to oppress and ostracize a segment of your own population.
In before I'm ridiculed along the lines of "lol your a offal spellar two how cen yoo crizize us yoo hippocrat"
Everyone here who's criticized someone else's spelling has made several mistakes themselves.
This is a common theme I've noticed in reading any comments left by a British person, on all the websites I visit.
I do believe you'd be best off investing that 15k into your education system rather than using it to oppress and ostracize a segment of your own population.
In before I'm ridiculed along the lines of "lol your a offal spellar two how cen yoo crizize us yoo hippocrat"
Emma, Rosehill says...
10:16pm Wed 11 Jun 08
I find this really silly . What does my thoughts got to do with my spellings? Yes I admit my spellings are bad well sorry IÂ’m not the best thing in the world. I have emailed Tom Brake and he interested about my thoughts. YouÂ’re caming on there arranging. IÂ’m 14 years old and your telling a 14 year old girl she canÂ’t spell. How old are you. Yes we do sit on the carves but if the steps go it would make it worse and make more of us teenagers want to sit on the carves. IÂ’m trying get my point across not my spellings if you canÂ’t see that Jane donÂ’t came on there and start saying stuff about my spellings seriously how old are you and IÂ’m 14! I hope everyone understands how I feel about these steps ( that much ).
Falken, says...
9:10am Fri 11 Jul 08
The stupidity of "public servants" never ceases to amaze me. Is this a free country or not?
thequeen, Sutton says...
5:43pm Wed 10 Sep 08
This is actually ridiculous. All the comments about defending someones spelling and then someone coming back and defending their comments. Too many people are wasting their energies on trying to score personal points with other members. This is not about spelling, and is not about defending the teenager who wrote the comment. Put your energy into creating a place where teenagers will feel safe, and parents feeling safe about sending their children there. It is a holistic approach, both adult and teenagers to be incorporated into making a decision in what they need.
Second point is....why wait for council to do something...why not approach it in a different manner, actually do it yourself. Being pro-active is about creating your own destiny, stop allowing others to decide on your destiny.
So instead of bickering about spelling and who sat there, and quite frankly childish behaviour....plan on what you are going to contribute to creating a safe environment for both adults and teenagers.
I am looking forward to seeing the postive attitudes in this forum.
Second point is....why wait for council to do something...why not approach it in a different manner, actually do it yourself. Being pro-active is about creating your own destiny, stop allowing others to decide on your destiny.
So instead of bickering about spelling and who sat there, and quite frankly childish behaviour....plan on what you are going to contribute to creating a safe environment for both adults and teenagers.
I am looking forward to seeing the postive attitudes in this forum.
Stand up: The council is trying to make the steps a no-sitting zone Deadlinepix SU20878
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HELEN, MORDEN says...
9:37am Thu 15 May 08